I was totally and utterly outrageous, and very effeminate. I was always playing with dolls. Anything to do with girls, I wanted. I used to play with my neighbours Barbie dolls. I’ve always been very independent, even as a child. From the age of nine I was working; I cleaned a sweet shop and then a betting shop. I also had a paper-round, did shopping for the old dears, and on Saturdays I worked the fruit and veg stall on Kilburn High Road.
Were you well behaved?
No I wasn’t. I was very naughty. I got up to everything possible. When I was a very young child in the 1960s I would play in the bomb-site which was near to the prefab (prefabricated house) we lived in. My brothers and I used to play there all the time. One time one of my brothers accidentally trod on a nail and when he got home he got a penny. So I went back and did the same thing because I wanted a penny, too. When I got home I got a clout round the head and sent to bed… with no penny. But I was also a loveable child, everyone loved me.
Do you remember if you were into performance of any kind at that age?
Me and my little brother used to read out the adverts together. Then all those years later Bette Rinse had that in her shows – singing the adverts. As a child all I wanted to do was work and get money. Working was better than getting into trouble. Nowadays that would of course be considered child labour. I’m so happy and glad I grew up in that era and I’m the age I am now because yes we were devils but we did no harm, and we had a lot more freedom than the children these days. I had the best times.
So when did you first start performing?
I was in school plays, and I wrote and directed them as well. I got an award for one of my plays: Lady Rosemary‘s 50th Birthday Party. That was in high school. I was never very clever putting pen to paper but I had loads of ideas and imagination. Winning that award meant so much to me – I was twelve years old – because out of the whole school, I won the top prize. Our school was very drama orientated, so I was lucky to be in many different plays when I was growing up. I loved anything theatrical. When I was a child I used to put on my mum’s lipstick, roughe, boots and high-heels. My dad would come round and clout me because he didn’t want me to be that sort of person.
Was your father homophobic?
Oh yes absolutely! He was against everything. You have to remember this was the 60s, gay sex was illegal and people were regularly electrocuted to have the gay taken out of them. They were crazy times that many of us lived through and thankfully survived.
What happened when the time came for you to leave school?
They wanted me to go to college. One of my teachers wanted me to be a window dresser, one of them wanted me to be a hairdresser, and my art teacher got me into a good college to do design and printing. But me being me, I wanted to get out into that big wide world and earn money.
But you always had that creative flair.
Yes I did. The thing is, I would go into one job and someone would say something and I’d end up shouting my mouth off, then I’d get the sack. This happened over and over until I got a job as a trainee chef at an international film studio, which was absolutely fantastic. I got such a buzz being on set. I remember thinking then I wanted to be more in the spotlight… but then I got married, had two children and went to work at the post office. Once I got married I knew I had to get a regular job with good prospects because we had children on the way.
What happened after that?
I had to leave the post office due to my mental illness. I’ve suffered with mental illness from the age of nine. When I was a child I was sexually abused by a pedophile ring in Kilburn. When my son was born, my depression came back with a vengeance and I became very very ill. I was too sick to go to work. I was on very high medication, as I still am – but not as high dosage. I was a walking zombie, never went out anywhere or did anything. Anyway one night my friend Chris persuaded me to go out for a drink – I never drank, or even liked drinking. We went to few pubs but I just wanted go home; Chris being ever persuasive convinced me to go to one last place and it was there that I met Andrew, my current partner. I fell in love with him instantly – even though I was still married. The following day I went back out and hunted for him, we had a drink, and the rest is history. We’ve now been together for thirty three years.
How did your wife take it?
It wasn’t a very good experience. But we still stuck together for the children. We never told them about the affair I was having with Andrew. Even in those days, in the 80s, being gay was frowned upon and I was called fag and puff and queer and all those names which I could deal with, but what was most important was protecting the children from all of that. That’s why we decided not to tell them until they were sixteen.
Did you start performing after you met Andrew or before?
After I met Andrew. The first gay pub I went to was Comptons. Then I used to go to The Black Cap and that’s where I met drag queens like Sandra and Lucia, watching them performing I’d think that’s exactly what I want to do.
Then you started performing as a Bette and got a taste for it…
I wasn’t Bette Rinse at first, though. I was Margaret Rose.
Very posh.
Oh yes, dear. Actually it was a ship that sunk, so it was like my career to come.
THEN you became Bette Rinse and started taking the drag scene by storm?
Eventually. It was hard in those days, there was so many amazing acts, well… thinking they were amazing. The drag scene was a very tight knit community then. It was very hard to get your name out there. I started off in competitions and then I got into hosting them, which I really enjoyed.
What is it about hosting competitions that you like so much?
Being in control.
Are you a control freak?
I wouldn’t say I’m a control freak. But I like things done the way I like them done. I like organisation. Hosting is my fortè, even though I get things wrong.
You have a warm and nurturing nature that always comes across in your competitions. Does that come instinctively to you?
Yes it does. I’m like a mother hen. I think of it like getting something out of a paper bag and it’s total crap and then you wrap it up again and six weeks later it’s amazing.
You’ve always had such a way with words.
My dear, my brain is fucked. Not from anything I shouldn’t have taken, but from legal drugs.
Turning to some of your protégées that you mentored and invested a lot of time in, most notably Mary Mac and Stephanie Von Clitz.
I fell in love with Mary Mac the minute I met her. I mean, she looked a fucking cunt. She looked like a bit of old baggage that had been dropped out of British Caledonian airlines. Anyway she could sing, she was amazing, but the one thing she never had was the chat. We had this double act together, that I really enjoyed, called Rinse Out Your Haggis. Mary had the vocals and I had the chat. All of a sudden because she’s theatrically trained Mary has learnt very well and actually become Bette Rinse herself but in a stronger form. She’s done very, very well. I just hope she remembers me when she’s at the top, because that’s where she’s going to be. I PUT YOU THERE YOU BITCH (laughs). Stephanie Von Clitz did karaoke at 79CXR when I was there and was such a cute little guy that used to remind me of the lead singer of Depeche Mode because he would ‘sing’ one of their numbers. I always thought to myself that this one could be a really good drag queen and I wanted to help make that happen. Stephanie was like a second hand rose, but she got there in the end and I’m really proud of her.
Will drag always be a part of your life?
I will always love drag. I get such a buzz from entertaining people. It’s a hard game, but if you can make 40% or more of a cabaret audience laugh you’re doing a great job.
